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Messages - UltimaGriever

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FFX General / If Seymour HAD become Yuna's Final Aeon...
« on: July 21, 2015, 11:34:04 am »
I believe he'd be Odin.


Seymour is a man obsessed with death. He has hands drenched in blood: he has already killed many people just for standing in his way, such as his father (thus avenging himself for his abandonment and usurping his position to the boot), Maester Kinoc (so he wouldn't stand in his way forcing him to kill Yuna, which he was unwilling to do), most of the Ronso (for standing on his way whilst he pursued Yuna) and he still wanted to bring just about everyone else in this. Odin's Zantetsuken can slice just about anything, bringing instant death to his target. I believe this incarnation of Odin wouldn't use a scimitar, but a spear (Gungnir), like FFIX's one as he appeared on the FMV destroying Cleyra.

But, UltimaGriever, Seymour didn't have the bond the FA requires to be strong enough!

Who said he didn't? Yuna hated him alright, because of his disregard for human life and that he killed his father, but the reciprocal is not true. Seymour did in fact love her, it is stated by the Ultimania Omega guide that he did, and there are numerous hints through the game that he did. If he really couldn't care any less about her, he'd let the Sinspawn Gui kill her, instead he frickin' held the monster's paws together and pinned it down with his sheer strength so it wouldn't devour her. He would always stand by her side and I'd say he sure as hell liked that kiss, because it seemed like he was eating her face surely you jest. Everytime he appeared he'd be really polite to her whilst being quite rude at Tidus, because he was everything that Seymour was not: he was young and cheery, while Seymour was older and gloomy and, last but definitely not least, Yuna had chosen Tidus, not him. This made Seymour and Tidus resent each other as if they were the crap stuck to the crap stuck to the bottom of their shoes out of jealousy. So yes, there was a Tidus-Yuna-Seymour love triangle in FFX. :p
And Seymour was so attached to Yuna that he was willing to kill her in order to have her only for himself (perhaps, if he did kill her, he'd go to the Farplane on his own, without needing to be sent there?) and, at the time of his death and right before he was sent, he had looked inside her eyes... He looked grateful that she was the one who sent him at last, because the only reason why he just didn't crush everyone's guts until then was because of her. He wanted to have her either way, and, if only she had picked him instead of Tidus, he would be able to be her FA, because of his strong feelings for her.

But, what about the horse and the spear?!?!!!!!!
Seymour has horse tattoos on his chest. The horse could be Sleipnir, on whom he'd mount and carry a spear loosely based on his staff and crush Sin asunder. I wish I had enough skill to draw what Seymour-Odin would look like in fayth statue and aeon form, but I'll try.

But, UltimaGriever, Tidus and Yuna are the OTP!!!!!!!!!

I still believe in Seymour/Yuna against all odds! DDDDD:

Yay! :D That's the spirit!

Omg thanks! I'm gonna read it now! :o

I don't know about Spira being governed by fayth, but by the spirits of the Farplane, and that it might be possible that there is an entity there akin to a god as Minerva is to the Lifestream, considering that FFVII is actually in FFX's future. But what I think is really awkward is that there is no mention of fayth being races other than human. No Al Bhed fayth (which is understandable, since they were always considered lower class), no Guado fayth, no Ronso fayth, no Hypello fayth either... just humans. This leads me to believe that the art was indeed created by ancient humans, who pursued even greater power, to create the art of summoning, trying first with pyreflies found loose in the world, to experimenting with other humans' pyreflies - hence why there's more than one way to create fayth.

Good point. Macalania Forest could have been a lush forest with a giant lake by its side until the temple with the fayth was placed there. Then the effects of the fayth on the environment made the lake and the forest freeze all over, and, when it vanished, everything started to melt. :)

The game doesn't make it very clear the difference between natural born fiends and those born from the dead's anger and hate, but perhaps they're one and the same.

Yevon might have placed taboo on anything prior to its age. That's why we never knew about the gods, or the aeon cores, which I'm not really really sure their creation actually involves sex. That's why the Al Bhed can't build new machina anymore, just salvage old ones. It's ironic that Bevelle, who branded Yevon and Yunalesca as heretics who should be put to death, was the heart of his religion and to this day keeps so many secrets that date from before the war, including their old religion and secrets on building machina, the key to their victory over Zanarkand in the war.

The Machina War was, to me, an interesting event that was seen by many characters differently. The Yevoners blame the war on the Al Bhed: there was even a mass execution of them when the war ended. Yevon's fayth blame it on Bevelle and their machina, but they never mention them also having summoners on the front lines, neither do they say that Zanarkand actually had a head-start due to them using machina themselves, including airships. We only hear one side of the story: the side that's widely known to everyone, including the fayth, due to Yevon's influence over the world during and after the war. Yevon paints himself as the victim, because he had to sacrifice his people just to create a fac-simile of his city (meaning he cared more about his city's memory than with the citizens themselves), because Bevelle was so mean to him and his brainwashing that he had no choice than to summon a gargantuan beast to threaten Bevelle with oblivion with it, only to keep it around to protect his summoning of the city he used to rule and punish everyone for his and Bevelle's mistakes for one thousand years, and only God knows how many more had Yuna actually used the Final Aeon to destroy it. Only Maechen is able to give us something more than the fayth's self-pity (the summoners of Zanarkand didn't stand a chance whining - this was only around the end of the war) by saying that Yevon was actually the ruler of Zanarkand, that the Hymn of the Fayth was sung in defiance of Bevelle (it's actually a prayer to Yevon, instead of the gods of Bevelle's religion) and that Zanarkand's destruction was planned by Yevon, just to show off his might so that Bevelle would surrender already. He had Yunalesca run away with Zaon prior to summoning Sin, told her to create an aeon off of him and summoned Sin out of the souls of the dead soldiers. Then he used Sin to destroy Zanarkand, devoid of any life thanks to everyone having been turned to fayth, and Yunalesca returned to the ruins, transformed Zaon into a fayth and waited. In the meanwhile, Bevelle's troops raided Gagazet and found only ruins where Zanarkand had been and an uncountable number of fayth. Sin then emerged from the ruins and did nothing, because Yevon wanted them to witness his might and return to Bevelle. Then the rumors flew in Bevelle regarding Sin, saying that the people of Zanarkand became the fayth who called Sin. They were only half-right, though, for the fayth did not have anything to do with Sin. Then Yunalesca went to Bevelle to confront them, saying that she has the means of subduing the creature and that she is the only one who knows it, and that if they didn't abide by her rules then Sin would crush Bevelle into oblivion and destroy Spira. Bevelle couldn't have done anything. They were helpless. They had Vegnagun, but they were unsure of whether it was safe to use or not, so, in any case, they were essentially doomed if they didn't just give up. So they did, and Yunalesca subjected them to the shame of worshipping Yevon, spreading and enforcing his teachings to all of Spira before she went off to fulfill her end of the bargain. She summoned Zaon's aeon and it destroyed Sin's carcass, but Yevon emerged from it and possessed the aeon, severing her mental link to the aeon and killing her in the process. Because she needed to remain to ensure that others would do the same, she lingered as an unsent and returned to her hall in Zanarkand's ruins, waiting for her successors, fully knowing their attempts were in vain. Nobody would ever cease her lord father's reign over the land.

I liked it whenever the war was mentioned because nobody, apart from those who lived and fought in it, could ever give testimony to what happened, and, even if they did, it was most likely biased. Lenne and Shuyin were biased towards Zanarkand. Valm and Kush were biased towards Bevelle. I liked the novel in that it gave us insight into both sides of the coin, not just "Zanarkand had summoners and Bevelle had machina" stuff they said in the games. Never did they mention Yunalesca and Yevon would brainwash their people into fighting, that she would even goad soldiers to fight endlessly by insinuating they would have sexual contact with her once they came back (at least that was implied from what the soldier said in the novel). The game didn't show the bloody, gory side of the war, and anyone past their childhood surely knows that wars mean death, blood and gore above anything else.

Awww. I'm so curious!  :-X Hahahaha.

Yay Bria! Poor guy. :( At least he was spared a worse fate...

Be careful, I don't know if Ifahnal has really murdered Tidus. I just have some clues. But I can't tell you yet.


I kind of agreed with you, because of the gunpowder thing in the ship and then the bomb falling on his head out of the f*king blue, but if it has something to do with Shuyin, I don't believe they had ever met during the war... Unless...

I thought about two hypotheses: that Tidus's existence has grown fainter due to him being an incarnate spirit, or that he has actually become 'part' of that summoning that was starting to fade.

On a second note, who was the core for Ifarnal to summon the island, and why did he do it? O.o Is it mentioned in the novel?
Besides, why did he murder Tidus? Does it have to be with testing Yuna's ability to beckon him? That the multiple beckonings could weaken the Farplane? I'm so confused. :(

Now that I think of it, it seems really possible that he might have let go of his hatred even before he was sent. When he was finally defeated, he seemed to accept that it was nigh time for him, and I could hear a tone of gratitude that it was Yuna, and no one else, who got to send him in the end. I'd guess hard that he really did love her, in his own twisted way. He was never impolite to her, only to her guardians, Tidus to a greater extent. This is why I absolutely love Seymour/Yuna, and btw, I want to read that one-shot!  :o

To the life-cycle point of view, summoning is highly unnatural. It may be a millennial art, but that doesn't make it less natural to the life and death order, in that it prevents the souls of the dead from going to the Farplane OR from becoming fiends: they remain trapped, as if they were still alive, retaining a consciousness of their own and something akin to a hive mind, only to manifest physically as aeons when a summoner beckons. Of course, because of all these implications, one could only be turned into fayth if he/she him/herself showed the desire to become so, fully knowing his/her fate in eternal limbo. This may also be why Yuna states in the book that it's not the summoner who takes the initiative to bond, but the fayth.

I believe the "voice of the mountain" the Ronso heard was the Dream Zanarkand fayth. It is stated by Maechen that, when Bevelle troopers climbed Gagazet to reach Zanarkand, they found the city completely deserted and a multitude of the fayth singing the Hymn of the Fayth. The "voices" the Ronso hear from the mountain most likely stem from the fayth answering to them. But the game never mentioned anything like aeons that weren't manifested by fayth, just the effects of there already being fayth in the environment, such as the fayth from Macalania Temple (Shiva) causing the lake to remain frozen and giving life to the forest: when the fayth vanished, the lake melted, causing the temple to sink to the bottom of it, and the forest began to die slowly.

What was seen prior to the end of the Machina War was technology and summoning arts living together. There were MANY huge cities, not just Luca, Bevelle and Zanarkand: ruins of those lost cities can be seen spread throughout Spira, most likely destroyed by Sin. It isn't known if all those cities, allied to either side or not, had summoners, but Ifarnal is said to hail from Luca, so it's possible that the art of summoning wasn't exclusive to only Bevelle and Zanarkand. The whole thing that sparked the war was pure religious spite: while Bevelle had this polytheist religion hitherto unmentioned, the people of Zanarkand worshiped their ruler, Yu Yevon, and his family. And they fought with all they had, from machina to summoners, except the Bedohls managed to outrun Zanarkand in the arms race and Yevon found himself forced to do what he did, given his immense amount of control over the peoples' lives. This is why I don't believe the Bedohls ever served Zanarkand: have you ever seen a Yevonite Al Bhed, or a different sect of these separate from the Al Bhed we know? Although it MIGHT be possible that, if there really were any of them in Zanarkand, they most likely gave in to Yevon and became fayth for DZ.

I believe they chose not to summon anymore. Can't say anything about Yunalesca, but Seymour did choose not to, because since his almighty aeon who should be capable of defeating Sin itself had been felled by normal people without Final Aeons, he regarded them to be weak and, therefore, did not want to use them again. Perhaps Yunalesca didn't have any purpose to summon at all, since she was confined to that weird hall of Zanarkand Dome which I find creepy as hell, and think the souls that had become fayth there are trapped for eternity, unable to manifest as aeons and to depart to the Farplane.

Could it be possible that that Flan Azul beckoned Seymour? If it is, then it's plausible that Sin came back, since Seymour was obsessed with it to the point of insanity.

As for summoning, I believe it's unnatural. The summoner is actually using human souls as weapons. They prevent that person's soul from resting after their death and use them at will to project monstrous deformed versions of them who are bound to the will of the summoner. They have almost no say as to how they are being used. Yevon's fayth suffered for a thousand years before someone put an end to their misery. Even Auron noted that "the dead should be allowed to rest". It's basically the same for the Aeon Cores.

I might be able to do it over night... Just let me get home and I'll say if I can or not. :)

The fayth used to say that Yu Yevon was peerless. Would it mean, then, that he had some degree of control over the pyreflies of the living? This would reasonably explain how he sent so many people to the front lines, and how he managed to get the very rest of his people to undergo mass suicide. It's like Kim Jong-un and North Korea, except that there are people who disagree with him - otherwise there wouldn't be any forced labor camps in NK. But no - in-game and novella sources seem to point towards mass brainwashing taking place in Zanarkand.

What I found curious is that the souls that had been Yevon's fayth seem to have a different nature than that of those who were not. Souls of the "normal" (that is, those who hadn't been fayth) dead didn't ever manifest on the Farplane as more than illusions projected by the living's memories (this could be possible in the core of the Farplane, where Auron, Jecht and Braska were heard talking to Yuna during the battle with Vegnagun/Shuyin on X-2), however the souls of the fayth manifested at will and had a consciousness of their own. They could also manifest as the aeons they represented, and, in doing so, they were also tangible. Yevon's way of creating fayth was done in a way that altered the very nature of the soul, in that the person couldn't really die even if it could be freed someday.

Listening to the Hymn of the Fayth and that BGM that plays when you're within Sin/that dream Tidus had in Mt. Gagazet gives me all the creeps possible after realizing all this stuff.  :o

EDIT: I believe Yu Yevon died at some point, but never noticed, because he had to keep up with summoning from hundreds of thousands of fayth AND controlling Sin... The bug-like form was most likely for greater ease in possessing aeons so he could use their pyreflies to form another carcass for Sin, and then he'd throw the previous soul away (presumably to the Farplane or to that room where Yunalesca lurks - when you get it you'll poop bricks).

EDIT 2: When I was a kid I dreamed of living in a city like Zanarkand. I don't anymore. *shudders*

After reading the novella a few times, I've related some of the information to what's been provided by the games and I'm absolutely creeped out by some stuff, namely Yevon itself and the whole Machina War black-and-white drama.

Zanarkand was never truly a victim. Yu Yevon and Yunalesca brainwashed their (very young) soldiers into fighting. I'm quite sure that they are the "Mage of Zanarkand" and the "Summoner Princess" mentioned in the novel, respectively. This would mean that they exerted an abnormal kind of control over Zanarkand's population, even so that they ALL agreed to become fayth (!!!!!!!!!!) for Dream Zanarkand's summoning. One of Zanarkand's soldiers mentioned that he "had" to fight to "win" the Princess's heart (even though Yunalesca was already married) and that she had kissed him. Yevon and Yunalesca played really dirty to get to win this war.

Zanarkand had machina, too. And, in the beginning of the war, they had machinery even more advanced than Bevelle's. It was only when Bevelle decided to take on the arms race that it won, presumably by the aid of the Bedohls (Al Bhed). Not that Bevelle was innocent either, the Machina War was essentially a holy war in that it only started when the head of Bevelle decreed Yunalesca and Yu Yevon heretics for not following their polytheist doctrine and declaring themselves as gods instead.

The fayth, when created by Yu Yevon's ways, were unable to pass on to afterlife, having their souls trapped in the world of the living for as long as he existed. This method of creating fayth bound their existence to that of Yu Yevon's, and they had to worship him, even though, after so many centuries, they got tired of being unable to just let go and depart to the Farplane. They were forced to sing the Hymn of the Fayth, which is a Japanese anagram meaning unconditional worship to Yu Yevon and keeps the fayth dreaming. I would guess Bevelle found that to be outrageous and vowed to purge Spira from this kind of heathen.

When you enter Yunalesca's room, you hear an off-key chorus of male voices singing the Hymn of the Fayth. I think it could be possible that the other Final Aeon fayths might be the ones singing. They sound like they're in despair, because their souls are kind of trapped there, unable to become aeons because they already were (Sin) but they're not anymore, and even though they're not technically fayths anymore, they can't move on because of their nature as dying as fayths. I don't know if I'm being sufficiently clear, but.. :(

That Yu Yevon was actually able to convince every last citizen of Zanarkand to give their lives up to become fayth for his megalomaniac summoning is enough to get one to think. Nobody can convince everyone 100% of an idea, let alone suggest that everyone commit collective suicide just so I can recreate a memory because we've lost the war either way. Maybe a small sect, but not the entire population of Zanarkand. Considering that Zanarkand was a fairly huge city, it should've had a huge population, and it's widely known that not a single thing would get voted unanimously among a huge populace: someone, even if only 1 person, would disagree upon it. Yet every living citizen of Zanarkand (it's not mentioned if unsents can become fayth - even though Seymour wanted to become one) agreed upon Yu Yevon's decision of turning everybody into fayth, and it's stated in-game that the person must be willing to undergo the ceremony for it to be successful. IMHO Yu Yevon and Yunalesca basically have the entire population under what could be compared to a city-wide Imperius Curse, in that the people cater to their every whim: if someone were told by Yunalesca or Yevon to throw themselves under a train, they would do it without a second thought and without question. It's much worse than the post-war teachings of Yevon, in that some people had the choice of following them or not (namely, the Al Bhed/Auron).

Bevelle's soldiers were not far from that, although. They fiercely believed that their deities existed (much like Orthodox Christians/Muslims) and would kill on the spot anyone who defied their religion. They scouted for people who seemed to be talented in the arts of summoning and took them from their families since they were very little, as early as 4 or 5 years old, to train in special camps. They were bestowed with a god's name thereafter and would be referred to by that name until their deaths. They were basically indoctrinated from the very beginning of understanding the world surrounding them and forced to serve the authorities to the end of their lives. Kush, for instance, seemed like a spoiled brat to Valm in the beginning, but she didn't know better, having been raised that way. They thought they were fighting for their gods. They knew no better than that.

After the war, Bevelle was forced to swallow Yevon's BS and to revere him in order to quell Sin's wrath. Yevon managed to stun Spira's advance for a whole millennium. That's how narcissistic one can get, folks.

The thing with Sin coming back reminded me of Seymour. Wasn't he the one who was obsessed with taking control of Sin to satisfy his nihilistic needs? A small group of Guado could have wished for a leader from the original bloodline, so they beckoned Seymour, who beckoned Sin... well.

As much as I abso-****-lutely love Seymour, I wouldn't want him to be back just for that.

I think "the possible" that the fayth did was bring back a somewhat distorted Tidus.

You can't mess up with the dead, or you could get not only yourself, but the entire balance of the universe by trying.
The fact that we die is directly linked by the fact that we are born: we are only able to reproduce because one day we will die.
If we were immortal, there would be no need to reproduce, or else there would be countless living beings since they can reproduce, but can't die.

By doing such a profane act as plucking someone's soul from death itself, or, in other words, bringing someone back from the Farplane, you're messing with the plane's balance: death is supposed to be irreversible, no matter how much the living wishes it would be. It demeans life: why would you live life to the fullest if you can live again? By bringing Tidus back to life, the fayth couldn't put his essence back together, because even they have flaws and couldn't see him as more than just a dream fabricated by them.

So he essentially was like a new computer assembled from scratch with an old hard drive: he has his memories, knows he loves Yuna, but still has the mindset of the guy who lived at Zanarkand and was star player of a blitzball team. And, of course, everybody who knew him and knows that he had died were like 'wtf how is that even possible', since he is no unsent, since he went to the Farplane, but was not like Jyscal who ventured out of it on his own accord, and even then everyone went wtf.

It's not that he's corrupting the other characters, but that he's corrupted himself but is not aware of it and everyone finds it strange that he managed to be brought back to life from the Farplane.

The thing about resurrecting him many times is REALLY demeaning. The fact that we live only once gives our life meaning, makes us want to live our life to the fullest because we know we are going to die someday and will never get another chance to live. To have him resurrect that many times invalidates this feeling, and Tidus himself as a character and a person, and this is really sad. :(

EDIT: Notice that the Farplane was already kind of unstable during the events of FFX-2, probably due to the uncountable number of fayth that was sent there at the end of FFX, perhaps Sin's presence there and Vegnagun absorbing its energy. Plucking Tidus out of it once might have intensified that instability and, by the time he was pulled out of it a SECOND time (stahp!), it kind of melted down and those bizarre beckoning events started happening. That's why you don't mess with the realm of the dead.

After much stress involving moving multiple times (and I still am! I'm starting to feel like a nomad) I'm back! :)

Yuna did seem a bit out of character. But, at the same time, she seemed scared - the island looked like Besaid, but everything about it seemed off: Tidus acting like nothing was wrong kind of put her off. It's a natural response when you are afraid of something and somebody else acts like it's not a big deal. It's not like when she was on her pilgrimage, when she knew her destiny and had to face it head-on, but something that was entirely out of her control: she was completely lost, stranded on an island that looked like Besaid, but at the same time didn't; didn't have the slightest bit of hope of finding a way to go back and her partner and former guardian acted like a child and sort of demeaned her by acting like it was no big deal. Anyone would act that way, I think.

When you're at the sea isolated, extremely tired/fatigued and dehydrated even, you can experience hallucinations so I'm pretty sure Tidus was just hallucinating

Spoiler (hover to show)



Question time!

Since it's now established that both Bevelle and Zanarkand had summoners, is it safe to assume that Bevelle considered Zanarkand's summoners heretics for not following their divinities, but Yu Yevon instead? The "Mage of Zanarkand" that they fight so fervently against, is that Yu Yevon? It seems to fit, since it's said that he has a daughter and hundreds of followers: he is the Mage, with Yunalesca being the daughter.
It makes sense, since Bevelle's old summoners seem to follow different ways than those of Zanarkand: they adopt their divinities' names and call forth the aeon cores' power to summon; whilst Zanarkand's summoners retain their birth names and use the fayth we saw on FFX, directly opposing Bevelle's ways and this could probably be an inciting factor to start the Machina War.

Btw, isn't it curious that everything shady/dark/nasty/whatever about Spira is related to Bevelle? Their use of machina was blamed for Sin's apparition, they made use of torture and subjugation to hide their past and coerce the summoners into advancing to the front lines, that's where **** happened in FFX, they hid Vegnagun under their depths, Trema took the spheres documenting Spira's past there to destroy them... One could say that Bevelle alludes to Pandora's Box due to all this ****.

EDIT: Why was Kush unwilling to send Valm to the Farplane, and why did she not let Ifarnal do it? I didn't get it either.. :(

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