FFX-3 Chat

Final Fantasy X-3 => FFX-3 Speculation and Developments => Topic started by: UltimaGriever on July 14, 2015, 04:08:24 pm

Title: I'm creeped out by the book, but I think it's actually GOOD. Spoilers ahead
Post by: UltimaGriever on July 14, 2015, 04:08:24 pm
After reading the novella a few times, I've related some of the information to what's been provided by the games and I'm absolutely creeped out by some stuff, namely Yevon itself and the whole Machina War black-and-white drama.

Zanarkand was never truly a victim. Yu Yevon and Yunalesca brainwashed their (very young) soldiers into fighting. I'm quite sure that they are the "Mage of Zanarkand" and the "Summoner Princess" mentioned in the novel, respectively. This would mean that they exerted an abnormal kind of control over Zanarkand's population, even so that they ALL agreed to become fayth (!!!!!!!!!!) for Dream Zanarkand's summoning. One of Zanarkand's soldiers mentioned that he "had" to fight to "win" the Princess's heart (even though Yunalesca was already married) and that she had kissed him. Yevon and Yunalesca played really dirty to get to win this war.

Zanarkand had machina, too. And, in the beginning of the war, they had machinery even more advanced than Bevelle's. It was only when Bevelle decided to take on the arms race that it won, presumably by the aid of the Bedohls (Al Bhed). Not that Bevelle was innocent either, the Machina War was essentially a holy war in that it only started when the head of Bevelle decreed Yunalesca and Yu Yevon heretics for not following their polytheist doctrine and declaring themselves as gods instead.

The fayth, when created by Yu Yevon's ways, were unable to pass on to afterlife, having their souls trapped in the world of the living for as long as he existed. This method of creating fayth bound their existence to that of Yu Yevon's, and they had to worship him, even though, after so many centuries, they got tired of being unable to just let go and depart to the Farplane. They were forced to sing the Hymn of the Fayth, which is a Japanese anagram meaning unconditional worship to Yu Yevon and keeps the fayth dreaming. I would guess Bevelle found that to be outrageous and vowed to purge Spira from this kind of heathen.

When you enter Yunalesca's room, you hear an off-key chorus of male voices singing the Hymn of the Fayth. I think it could be possible that the other Final Aeon fayths might be the ones singing. They sound like they're in despair, because their souls are kind of trapped there, unable to become aeons because they already were (Sin) but they're not anymore, and even though they're not technically fayths anymore, they can't move on because of their nature as dying as fayths. I don't know if I'm being sufficiently clear, but.. :(

That Yu Yevon was actually able to convince every last citizen of Zanarkand to give their lives up to become fayth for his megalomaniac summoning is enough to get one to think. Nobody can convince everyone 100% of an idea, let alone suggest that everyone commit collective suicide just so I can recreate a memory because we've lost the war either way. Maybe a small sect, but not the entire population of Zanarkand. Considering that Zanarkand was a fairly huge city, it should've had a huge population, and it's widely known that not a single thing would get voted unanimously among a huge populace: someone, even if only 1 person, would disagree upon it. Yet every living citizen of Zanarkand (it's not mentioned if unsents can become fayth - even though Seymour wanted to become one) agreed upon Yu Yevon's decision of turning everybody into fayth, and it's stated in-game that the person must be willing to undergo the ceremony for it to be successful. IMHO Yu Yevon and Yunalesca basically have the entire population under what could be compared to a city-wide Imperius Curse, in that the people cater to their every whim: if someone were told by Yunalesca or Yevon to throw themselves under a train, they would do it without a second thought and without question. It's much worse than the post-war teachings of Yevon, in that some people had the choice of following them or not (namely, the Al Bhed/Auron).

Bevelle's soldiers were not far from that, although. They fiercely believed that their deities existed (much like Orthodox Christians/Muslims) and would kill on the spot anyone who defied their religion. They scouted for people who seemed to be talented in the arts of summoning and took them from their families since they were very little, as early as 4 or 5 years old, to train in special camps. They were bestowed with a god's name thereafter and would be referred to by that name until their deaths. They were basically indoctrinated from the very beginning of understanding the world surrounding them and forced to serve the authorities to the end of their lives. Kush, for instance, seemed like a spoiled brat to Valm in the beginning, but she didn't know better, having been raised that way. They thought they were fighting for their gods. They knew no better than that.

After the war, Bevelle was forced to swallow Yevon's BS and to revere him in order to quell Sin's wrath. Yevon managed to stun Spira's advance for a whole millennium. That's how narcissistic one can get, folks.
Title: Re: I'm creeped out by the book, but I think it's actually GOOD. Spoilers ahead
Post by: ChercheurObscur on July 14, 2015, 05:49:52 pm
You know, I wouldn't be surprised if Yevon had controlled everyone's mind in order to send them to the front or to turn them into fayths ! He was a very powerful mage. He certainly was familiar with pyreflies, I think. And by dint of playing more and more with them, he became a horrible entity.

The funny fact would be Tidus becoming a "new Yu Yevon". It's not absurd when you know that he's a result of will and pyreflies more and more mysterious. We don't even know his condition when he comes back to Spira. I wouldn't mind if Nojima chose this path for Tidus in FFX-3 :P
Title: Re: I'm creeped out by the book, but I think it's actually GOOD. Spoilers ahead
Post by: Danko Kaji on July 14, 2015, 07:45:49 pm
Okay. I only saw a piece of that whole picture when reading the novel, but this? This is amazing. I can't wait to refer to this properly in my rewrite of the novel. So much UNTAPPED POTENTIAL!!!
Title: Re: I'm creeped out by the book, but I think it's actually GOOD. Spoilers ahead
Post by: UltimaGriever on July 15, 2015, 08:42:41 am
The fayth used to say that Yu Yevon was peerless. Would it mean, then, that he had some degree of control over the pyreflies of the living? This would reasonably explain how he sent so many people to the front lines, and how he managed to get the very rest of his people to undergo mass suicide. It's like Kim Jong-un and North Korea, except that there are people who disagree with him - otherwise there wouldn't be any forced labor camps in NK. But no - in-game and novella sources seem to point towards mass brainwashing taking place in Zanarkand.

What I found curious is that the souls that had been Yevon's fayth seem to have a different nature than that of those who were not. Souls of the "normal" (that is, those who hadn't been fayth) dead didn't ever manifest on the Farplane as more than illusions projected by the living's memories (this could be possible in the core of the Farplane, where Auron, Jecht and Braska were heard talking to Yuna during the battle with Vegnagun/Shuyin on X-2), however the souls of the fayth manifested at will and had a consciousness of their own. They could also manifest as the aeons they represented, and, in doing so, they were also tangible. Yevon's way of creating fayth was done in a way that altered the very nature of the soul, in that the person couldn't really die even if it could be freed someday.

Listening to the Hymn of the Fayth and that BGM that plays when you're within Sin/that dream Tidus had in Mt. Gagazet gives me all the creeps possible after realizing all this stuff.  :o

EDIT: I believe Yu Yevon died at some point, but never noticed, because he had to keep up with summoning from hundreds of thousands of fayth AND controlling Sin... The bug-like form was most likely for greater ease in possessing aeons so he could use their pyreflies to form another carcass for Sin, and then he'd throw the previous soul away (presumably to the Farplane or to that room where Yunalesca lurks - when you get it you'll poop bricks).

EDIT 2: When I was a kid I dreamed of living in a city like Zanarkand. I don't anymore. *shudders*
Title: Re: I'm creeped out by the book, but I think it's actually GOOD. Spoilers ahead
Post by: Danko Kaji on July 16, 2015, 01:01:33 am
I always wondered whether or not Unsents were capable of Summoning (I mean, do you need to be alive to sustain that unique mental connection? Or is the soul a base requirement?), and then I noticed Belgemine and Ginnem were able to summon their The Magus Sisters and Yojimbo respectively. It's odd that Seymour (and to a certain extent Yunalesca) chose not to summon, unless they couldn't?

Also, while going through Fiend Tales in FFX-2, I learned that a fiend's capable of beckoning a loved one in the Farplane. And if this counts as a hint for future characters, a Flan Azul (a Guado in his past life) had been loyal to Seymour Guado once and still retains that loyalty. In the end of his tale, he still believes Seymour may still exist in the living realm and departed to look for him. There's so much we don't know about the nature of things, especially when it comes to unique exceptions of already common knowledge.

I mean, if we're getting all these different methods of Summoning, what had been the original method and for what purpose? I have a theory Summoning may have been an ancient art that originated from the Guado until humans (or Bevelle) stole their secrets and redeveloped the magic for their own purposes. Knowing Bevelle, it monopolized the secrets of Summoning until Yevon and his daughter fled, thus inevitably causing it to spread and alter once more. The Myst village in FFIV had the Summoning art restricted to their settlement until an imposter King sought to eradicate their people for fear of future threat, and that makes me wonder if something similar happened in FFX many years before Yevon's time.
Title: Re: I'm creeped out by the book, but I think it's actually GOOD. Spoilers ahead
Post by: UltimaGriever on July 16, 2015, 08:31:49 am
I believe they chose not to summon anymore. Can't say anything about Yunalesca, but Seymour did choose not to, because since his almighty aeon who should be capable of defeating Sin itself had been felled by normal people without Final Aeons, he regarded them to be weak and, therefore, did not want to use them again. Perhaps Yunalesca didn't have any purpose to summon at all, since she was confined to that weird hall of Zanarkand Dome which I find creepy as hell, and think the souls that had become fayth there are trapped for eternity, unable to manifest as aeons and to depart to the Farplane.

Could it be possible that that Flan Azul beckoned Seymour? If it is, then it's plausible that Sin came back, since Seymour was obsessed with it to the point of insanity.

As for summoning, I believe it's unnatural. The summoner is actually using human souls as weapons. They prevent that person's soul from resting after their death and use them at will to project monstrous deformed versions of them who are bound to the will of the summoner. They have almost no say as to how they are being used. Yevon's fayth suffered for a thousand years before someone put an end to their misery. Even Auron noted that "the dead should be allowed to rest". It's basically the same for the Aeon Cores.
Title: Re: I'm creeped out by the book, but I think it's actually GOOD. Spoilers ahead
Post by: Danko Kaji on July 16, 2015, 08:04:55 pm
You make a very good point about Seymour. Thank you.

I think it's entirely possible that the Flan Azul beckoned Seymour. But I highly doubt Seymour beckoned Sin. Reason being, it's very dubious whether or not a "beckoned" incarnate spirit can beckon as well. Going from the behavior of Maelu's mother in -Will-, and to an unclear extent Tidus, those who have been beckoned do not seem to possess a full independent will of their own; they are a constant, interchanging reflection of the person's thoughts, feelings, and perceptions of whoever beckoned them. Maelu's mother spoke and behave exactly how the daughter wanted (or expected) her to be, and the mother's spirit (although not entirely solid, because Yuna and Kurgum could tell) retained enough semblance of consciousness where she resisted Maelu's father's attempts to reject her presence. Compared to a young girl's will to beckon, Yuna's beckoning must be ten times stronger, so naturally Tidus would be harder to pinpoint as a spirit. Although I'm starting to suspect her feelings for Tidus are deteriorating (or maybe because of physical distance?), because he's definitely a lot weaker after a year.

Anyway, my initial point was, Seymour couldn't have beckoned Sin due to his own (possible) beckoned status; plus, I honestly don't think he has that ambition anymore. Unlike the Via Infinito bosses who refused to rest in the Farplane (Yo Mika, Kinoc, Jyscal, Zaon, and Yunalesca; some of them were sent!), Seymour was curiously absent from the events of FFX-2. You'd think that if he still wished to end Spira through a mass genocide of misplaced sympathy, he'd make himself known. I believe that, despite the fact he fought to win, Seymour didn't suffer an unclean defeat by Yuna's hand. Not only did she finally Send him, he didn't forcibly reemerge from the Farplane like his father. I think winding up in the Farplane stripped him of his regret and hatred. There's a wonderful Seymour/Yuna one-shot that explores that concept.

Perhaps to us, Summoning is unnatural. It's an ancient art that "tames" or weaponizes magical beasts to fight for us. It's too much power for any one person capable of even channeling such mystical beings, using your own body and life force to anchor them. However, I actually believe there's a positive, self-sacrificing aspect to them (that does not include literally killing the Summoner). It's entirely possible that many a millennia before the start of advanced civilizations, the Fayth were willing advocates of maintaining the world order - that once they become spirits infused within statue, they had shrines built for them (until maybe later where the volunteers were dwindling and the rising power of humanity began to use those who were "a crime against nature" such as children of inbreeding between different races to provide Fayth for the world). Perhaps Carbuncle had always stood as the spirit presiding over Macalania Woods, until Shiva's reign over the land buried him beneath a prison of ice. Maybe Quazecotl dwells deep within the waters of the Thunder Plains, which could be the reason why that entire region suffers from never-ending thunder storms. Maybe that temple YRP found atop the highest peak of Mt. Gagazet used to serve as Leviathan's home (wouldn't it be really cool if Leviathan's spirit used to be a wise, old Hypello?). And maybe the 'voice of the mountain' the Ronso often refer to could be Fenrir communicating with them.

Sure, there's the unfortunate implication that living beings used to serve the Fayth, worshipping them and channeling out their will unto the planet out of sense of innate obligation. And then humans rose to further their intelligent, seeking purpose for themselves, eventually inventing man-made technology and opening new path ways for alternate living (that does show they can function in a world without them). This gradual, slow change through the generations drew people away from traditional worship. I believe the Summoning art had been exclusive to the Guado, or ancestors of the Guado, because of what their initial roles are - gatekeepers of the Farplane, masters of pyrefly manipulation. Aside from a minority of humans, Guados are the only ones sensitive to pyreflies (which serves as the basis for all magic and phenomenon). And I also don't believe those statues that the Fayth reside in are made up of any normal stone. Normally I would have thought the souls used to become Fayth transform into the stone, until I remembered seeing the souls vacate their statues. So maybe the Ronso were masons who provided the material and sculpted the statues for the Guado to use. What if the stone they used had been soaked in mountain water seeped with stardust from the constant meteor showers that rained over the highest peak (that temple, perhaps?), which could explain why the pyreflies, or a person's soul, is able to stay anchored in such a statue. After all, pyreflies are attracted to other pyreflies and water. Pyreflies are shown to traverse the universe as rivers of energy similar to the Lifestream in FFVII (thanks to Seymour's recording), so it wouldn't be all too strange if some portions of that energy condensed and fell from the streams to become "shooting stars."

I don't know. I'm just mass speculating at this point.  8)

It seems like the Spiran Council's whole stance on the beckoning epidemic is 'the dead should be allowed to rest.' That even casts a dark light on Yuna's act of intercepting Kurgum's duties as something entirely intrusive, if not a violation of some sacred philosophy. No wonder the Yevoner hunters think the Yevoners' stance on living are profane (not that I'm justifying them or anything).
Title: Re: I'm creeped out by the book, but I think it's actually GOOD. Spoilers ahead
Post by: UltimaGriever on July 17, 2015, 09:06:14 am
Now that I think of it, it seems really possible that he might have let go of his hatred even before he was sent. When he was finally defeated, he seemed to accept that it was nigh time for him, and I could hear a tone of gratitude that it was Yuna, and no one else, who got to send him in the end. I'd guess hard that he really did love her, in his own twisted way. He was never impolite to her, only to her guardians, Tidus to a greater extent. This is why I absolutely love Seymour/Yuna, and btw, I want to read that one-shot!  :o

To the life-cycle point of view, summoning is highly unnatural. It may be a millennial art, but that doesn't make it less natural to the life and death order, in that it prevents the souls of the dead from going to the Farplane OR from becoming fiends: they remain trapped, as if they were still alive, retaining a consciousness of their own and something akin to a hive mind, only to manifest physically as aeons when a summoner beckons. Of course, because of all these implications, one could only be turned into fayth if he/she him/herself showed the desire to become so, fully knowing his/her fate in eternal limbo. This may also be why Yuna states in the book that it's not the summoner who takes the initiative to bond, but the fayth.

I believe the "voice of the mountain" the Ronso heard was the Dream Zanarkand fayth. It is stated by Maechen that, when Bevelle troopers climbed Gagazet to reach Zanarkand, they found the city completely deserted and a multitude of the fayth singing the Hymn of the Fayth. The "voices" the Ronso hear from the mountain most likely stem from the fayth answering to them. But the game never mentioned anything like aeons that weren't manifested by fayth, just the effects of there already being fayth in the environment, such as the fayth from Macalania Temple (Shiva) causing the lake to remain frozen and giving life to the forest: when the fayth vanished, the lake melted, causing the temple to sink to the bottom of it, and the forest began to die slowly.

What was seen prior to the end of the Machina War was technology and summoning arts living together. There were MANY huge cities, not just Luca, Bevelle and Zanarkand: ruins of those lost cities can be seen spread throughout Spira, most likely destroyed by Sin. It isn't known if all those cities, allied to either side or not, had summoners, but Ifarnal is said to hail from Luca, so it's possible that the art of summoning wasn't exclusive to only Bevelle and Zanarkand. The whole thing that sparked the war was pure religious spite: while Bevelle had this polytheist religion hitherto unmentioned, the people of Zanarkand worshiped their ruler, Yu Yevon, and his family. And they fought with all they had, from machina to summoners, except the Bedohls managed to outrun Zanarkand in the arms race and Yevon found himself forced to do what he did, given his immense amount of control over the peoples' lives. This is why I don't believe the Bedohls ever served Zanarkand: have you ever seen a Yevonite Al Bhed, or a different sect of these separate from the Al Bhed we know? Although it MIGHT be possible that, if there really were any of them in Zanarkand, they most likely gave in to Yevon and became fayth for DZ.
Title: Re: I'm creeped out by the book, but I think it's actually GOOD. Spoilers ahead
Post by: Danko Kaji on July 18, 2015, 01:58:58 am
This is why I absolutely love Seymour/Yuna, and btw, I want to read that one-shot!  :o

Here's the link. ;3

I actually fancy Seymour/Yuna myself, if not Seymour/Yuna/Baralai. ;) I believe another reason why Seymour fell in love with Yuna was because she resembled his mother (it doesn't help they share the same voice actor). Because Yuna and Seymour are singularities of the world, being half-breeds from their respective cultures, they could understand each other's pain and hardship better than anyone. I'm a sucker for that kind of couple chemistry. :3

Maybe Spira started out as a world governed by Fayth in times of antiquity. Even if humans and other intelligent life forms are capable of becoming Summoners, I highly doubt the ancient art originated from humans. Because Guados are not human, it probably made all the more sense to them. Human nature always perseveres in their pursuit for knowledge and power; the Hypello are content with their lackadaisical lifestyle, the Ronso kept to their mountain, and the Guado to their forests. Only Al Bhed, an off branch of humans, are the only other race shown to want more than what they already have. Spira must have been a planet saturated with an abundance of pyreflies, and there must have been a prehistoric age of chaos - where the dead coexisted with the living. Maybe pyreflies latched onto other life forms, such as the trees which grew to develop humanoid characteristics, and polar lions that evolved into beings capable of speech, learning to walk on their hind legs, and amphibians who became the Hypellos we know today.

The fact that a Goddess existed in the lore of FFVII makes me wonder if another type of God existed around FFX's time, perhaps an otherworldly being who dwells (or appears) in the Farplane. For all intents and purposes, the Farplane acts as the inner core of the planet (considering pyreflies are pure energy that circulates throughout space and are the "breath" of the soul). Perhaps that God manipulated pyreflies to craft living beings in his/her image, and that is why so many races are humanoid. Although the fiends we see in FFX are mainly those that are coalescence of pyreflies born from the lingering will of dead people, maybe the fiends were originally a part of the natural food chain. Fiends may have walked the earth as animals and not reincarnated humans, and during the 1000 years of tyranny under Sin, natural-born fiends blended with reincarnated ones. There's so much we don't know about Spira in its years of yore, only stories relevant to Yevon's age. Sigh.

You're right. That mural-Fayth could have been the "voice" for all we know. If only certain things were more clear. Hmph.

As for Macalania Woods, what had it been before Shiva's existence? A normal forest? Because the region must have existed before she froze the entire area within ice and crystal. Perhaps the woods are dying without Shiva, because it's melting - having been frozen for too long that the trees and plant life adapted to the temperature and are now dying under the rapid climate change.

You provide such incredible insight to the Machina War, I am in awe. <3
Title: Re: I'm creeped out by the book, but I think it's actually GOOD. Spoilers ahead
Post by: UltimaGriever on July 18, 2015, 09:16:36 pm
Omg thanks! I'm gonna read it now! :o

I don't know about Spira being governed by fayth, but by the spirits of the Farplane, and that it might be possible that there is an entity there akin to a god as Minerva is to the Lifestream, considering that FFVII is actually in FFX's future. But what I think is really awkward is that there is no mention of fayth being races other than human. No Al Bhed fayth (which is understandable, since they were always considered lower class), no Guado fayth, no Ronso fayth, no Hypello fayth either... just humans. This leads me to believe that the art was indeed created by ancient humans, who pursued even greater power, to create the art of summoning, trying first with pyreflies found loose in the world, to experimenting with other humans' pyreflies - hence why there's more than one way to create fayth.

Good point. Macalania Forest could have been a lush forest with a giant lake by its side until the temple with the fayth was placed there. Then the effects of the fayth on the environment made the lake and the forest freeze all over, and, when it vanished, everything started to melt. :)

The game doesn't make it very clear the difference between natural born fiends and those born from the dead's anger and hate, but perhaps they're one and the same.

Yevon might have placed taboo on anything prior to its age. That's why we never knew about the gods, or the aeon cores, which I'm not really really sure their creation actually involves sex. That's why the Al Bhed can't build new machina anymore, just salvage old ones. It's ironic that Bevelle, who branded Yevon and Yunalesca as heretics who should be put to death, was the heart of his religion and to this day keeps so many secrets that date from before the war, including their old religion and secrets on building machina, the key to their victory over Zanarkand in the war.

The Machina War was, to me, an interesting event that was seen by many characters differently. The Yevoners blame the war on the Al Bhed: there was even a mass execution of them when the war ended. Yevon's fayth blame it on Bevelle and their machina, but they never mention them also having summoners on the front lines, neither do they say that Zanarkand actually had a head-start due to them using machina themselves, including airships. We only hear one side of the story: the side that's widely known to everyone, including the fayth, due to Yevon's influence over the world during and after the war. Yevon paints himself as the victim, because he had to sacrifice his people just to create a fac-simile of his city (meaning he cared more about his city's memory than with the citizens themselves), because Bevelle was so mean to him and his brainwashing that he had no choice than to summon a gargantuan beast to threaten Bevelle with oblivion with it, only to keep it around to protect his summoning of the city he used to rule and punish everyone for his and Bevelle's mistakes for one thousand years, and only God knows how many more had Yuna actually used the Final Aeon to destroy it. Only Maechen is able to give us something more than the fayth's self-pity (the summoners of Zanarkand didn't stand a chance whining - this was only around the end of the war) by saying that Yevon was actually the ruler of Zanarkand, that the Hymn of the Fayth was sung in defiance of Bevelle (it's actually a prayer to Yevon, instead of the gods of Bevelle's religion) and that Zanarkand's destruction was planned by Yevon, just to show off his might so that Bevelle would surrender already. He had Yunalesca run away with Zaon prior to summoning Sin, told her to create an aeon off of him and summoned Sin out of the souls of the dead soldiers. Then he used Sin to destroy Zanarkand, devoid of any life thanks to everyone having been turned to fayth, and Yunalesca returned to the ruins, transformed Zaon into a fayth and waited. In the meanwhile, Bevelle's troops raided Gagazet and found only ruins where Zanarkand had been and an uncountable number of fayth. Sin then emerged from the ruins and did nothing, because Yevon wanted them to witness his might and return to Bevelle. Then the rumors flew in Bevelle regarding Sin, saying that the people of Zanarkand became the fayth who called Sin. They were only half-right, though, for the fayth did not have anything to do with Sin. Then Yunalesca went to Bevelle to confront them, saying that she has the means of subduing the creature and that she is the only one who knows it, and that if they didn't abide by her rules then Sin would crush Bevelle into oblivion and destroy Spira. Bevelle couldn't have done anything. They were helpless. They had Vegnagun, but they were unsure of whether it was safe to use or not, so, in any case, they were essentially doomed if they didn't just give up. So they did, and Yunalesca subjected them to the shame of worshipping Yevon, spreading and enforcing his teachings to all of Spira before she went off to fulfill her end of the bargain. She summoned Zaon's aeon and it destroyed Sin's carcass, but Yevon emerged from it and possessed the aeon, severing her mental link to the aeon and killing her in the process. Because she needed to remain to ensure that others would do the same, she lingered as an unsent and returned to her hall in Zanarkand's ruins, waiting for her successors, fully knowing their attempts were in vain. Nobody would ever cease her lord father's reign over the land.

I liked it whenever the war was mentioned because nobody, apart from those who lived and fought in it, could ever give testimony to what happened, and, even if they did, it was most likely biased. Lenne and Shuyin were biased towards Zanarkand. Valm and Kush were biased towards Bevelle. I liked the novel in that it gave us insight into both sides of the coin, not just "Zanarkand had summoners and Bevelle had machina" stuff they said in the games. Never did they mention Yunalesca and Yevon would brainwash their people into fighting, that she would even goad soldiers to fight endlessly by insinuating they would have sexual contact with her once they came back (at least that was implied from what the soldier said in the novel). The game didn't show the bloody, gory side of the war, and anyone past their childhood surely knows that wars mean death, blood and gore above anything else.
Title: Re: I'm creeped out by the book, but I think it's actually GOOD. Spoilers ahead
Post by: Danko Kaji on July 21, 2015, 08:00:33 pm
This might as well be nicknamed the Headcanon Exchange page, because look at all this amazing lore and information. :D

There is no mention of Fayth being races other than human, because that's all we know from Yevon's time and onwards, and that in itself can be considered a Dark Age. Who says there couldn't be non-human Fayth in Spira? The only reason why Al Bhed (in the last 1000 years, at least) were never among the (known) Fayth, because during the Machina War era they were "lower" class. Who knows where they originated from, or how they came to reach that point. Apparently in FFX, Rikku said that the Al Bhed used to live in a city out in an island near Bikanel Desert before Sin destroyed it, so perhaps the Bedohls had their own home city, isolated from the main continent. I don't know, in terms of the exclusive status of Summoning, we've only seen it hoarded and abused during a golden age overcome with human strife. Who knows where the Summoning craft originated and with whom. I just don't think the ability to manipulate pyreflies was easily or naturally accessible to anyone but the Guado. If Summoning did in fact originate from humans, then its roots could be traced to a shady minority of humans were mighty in tune with the planet to the point of insanity.

Curiously enough, FFX-2 International Mission hints at the possibility of newborn fiends through Shinra's Creature Creation, among other things (such as the extent of humanity a fiend does retain from its human life). I want to do an elaborate sweep of the Fiend Tales to develop a more clear headcanon for it. Oh, and another thing. The reason why I classify fiends as 'alive' more so than dead, because of the fact implications have been thrown that the people of Spira do eat fiends, like Wakka when pitted against a Behemoth. Not only are there morality issues with people eating reincarnated humans, but there's also the disturbing fact fiends are supposed to be considered undead life forms. That's why I thought it'd make more sense if fiends were considered animals instead, or monsters that are not exactly 'living carcasses' but sentient creatures.

Bevelle is the heart of hypocrisy. It's sad, but true. That's probably why Yevon left his home city in the first place, leaving behind everything he knew. The fact he placed more emotional attachment on a dream of a city instead of its people makes me wonder if Yevon actually gave up on humanity, if not the world as a whole, seeing no hope for redemption. Summoners are supposed to live for the people, serving as the main source of balance between the physical realm and the afterlife. It's unorthodox for a Summoner, no matter a peerless one, to turn their back on their core principles.

Your entire essay of Zanarkand/Bevelle/Machina War history gives me feels. Hnnnng. I-It's... it's so brilliant...  :o  But one thing, according to the FFX Ultimania Guide, Sin did level Bevelle to the ground shortly after its birth, thus forcing what remained from the rubble to rebuild it (and Yevon knows how long it took to restore Bevelle to its former glory). Try to squeeze that somewhere into your... brilliant, magnificent essay, hnng. >.>

I'm gonna miss swapping long-winded posts with you, UltimaGriever. Farewell, but not goodbye. I shall return in one month's time!  ;D
Title: Re: I'm creeped out by the book, but I think it's actually GOOD. Spoilers ahead
Post by: UltimaGriever on July 22, 2015, 01:08:14 pm
Omg yes! I have so many of these, because I've been playing this game for so long...

Yevon's age was definitely a Dark Age. Technology and science couldn't advance past Yevon's teachings, the church was incredibly corrupt and didn't really want the cycle to stop, because that meant they would lose their power. There's no way to know if there really were fayth that belonged to other races because none are shown, not even those from Zanarkand at Mt. Gagazet...

Sin was basically programmed to destroy large settlements and machina cities, so the city where the Al Bhed lived in Bikanel was most likely leveled because of that. But, in the beginning, Yu Yevon had control over Sin and destroyed Zanarkand on purpose, just so he could show off to Bevelle and bend them on their knees to him. That was the main purpose why Bevelle spread Yevon's church to Spira, that's what Maechen said.. unless I'm mistaken? >.>

Yevon was outright narcissist. He placed higher regard on his city's memory than the city itself and its people, hence why he didn't fight harder to protect it, just sacrificed his entire people and created a facsimile of it before leveling it just to show how mighty he was and that everyone should worship him as God else he will destroy everything. It's sick.

I've played FFX/X-2 for 10+ years now, about half of my lifetime. The Machina War was the event that piqued my curiosity the most, because not only Sin was the aftermath of the war, but how the whole story surrounding it was taboo and the only thing people knew was that "people used machina to kill, hence why Yevon's teachings forbid the use of machina". Ruins of places destroyed by the battles are scattered throughout Spira. They just said that a war broke between Bevelle and Zanarkand, no one can say for what reasons. The novella provided golden information on that time: how summoning wasn't exclusive to Zanarkand as their fayth seemingly claimed to be, how summoning didn't necessarily mean fayth (nobody calls the Aeon Cores fayth) and most of the reality of the war, i.e. summoner recruiting and training in Bevelle, brainwashing in Zanarkand, what people used to believe in prior to Yevon's church and the origins of the Al Bhed. I can't believe in how much people bash in it though... >.>

Please return!  :'(